Question:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –   Of course, the big problem with this, as with all supplement research in the US, is that there’s nobody to do it.  Industry isn’t interested, and the government, which only seems to have money for basic research or to repeat drug studies, isn’t either.  The biggest hole in US medical clinical research, as I’ve said many times, is not in investigation of gonzo "alternative medicine".  Rather, it’s in investigation of things that really aren’t that far out, like supplementation and new uses for off patent drugs. USANA is doing the nutritional research now. It has an in-house staff of scientists and conducts joint projects with a number of institutes in North America and abroad. I would be interested to see some documentation of this. Please post or direct me to a list of Institutions, published scientists, and descriptions of research projects involved.

Here is a cross-section of articles referring to publications, research and collaboration with other institutions. The results of specific research, such as the AIDS study in Toronto, will be published in due course. Scientific studies, as you know, take time. http://www.usana.com/company/usana_abstracts_symp.html http://www.usana.com/company/scientists.html http://www.usana.com/library/newspaper/H&FUS9-97/wentz_6.html http://www.usana.com/company/scientific_operations.html http://www.usana.com/library/gold_directions/98Jan/9.html http://www.usana.com/library/usana_magazine/93fal/russia.html http://www.usana.com/library/usana_magazine/96win/founder.html http://www.usana.com/library/gold_directions/97july/changed.html

Response:

Authors   Tunstall-Pedoe H.  Woodward M.  Tavendale R.  A’Brook R.  McCluskey MK. Institution   Cardiovascular Epidemiology Unit, Ninewells Hospital, and Medical School,   Dundee. h.tunstallpedoe:dundee.ac.uk Title   Comparison of the prediction by 27 different factors of coronary heart   disease and death in men and women of the Scottish Heart Health Study: cohort   study [published erratum appears in BMJ 1998 Jun 20;316(7148):1881]. Source   BMJ.  315(7110):722-9, 1997 Sep 20. Abstract   OBJECTIVE: To compare prediction by 27 different factors in men and women of   coronary heart disease events, coronary deaths, and deaths from all causes.   DESIGN: Cohort study. SETTING: Scottish population study. SUBJECTS: In 1984-7   random sampling of residents aged 40-59 produced 11,629 men and women who   generated survey clinic questionnaires, examination findings, and blood and   urine specimens. MAIN OUTCOME MEASURES: Subsequent death, coronary artery   surgery, and myocardial infarction. Risks were calculated for each category   of factor or fifth of continuous variables. 27 factors were ranked by   descending age adjusted hazard ratio of the top to bottom class in each   factor, by sex and end point. RESULTS: Follow up averaged 7.6 years, during   which the 5754 men had 404 coronary events, 159 coronary deaths, and 383   deaths and the 5875 women 177, 47, and 208 respectively. The rankings for   factors for the three end points were mainly similar in men and women,   although hazard ratios were often higher in women. Classical risk factors   ranked better for predicting coronary risk than newer ones. Yet strong   prediction of coronary risk was no guarantee of significant prediction of all   cause mortality. Findings included an anomalous coronary   protective role for type A behaviour in women; raised plasma fibrinogen as a   strong predictor of all end points; and an unexpectedly powerful protective   relation of dietary potassium to all cause mortality.   CONCLUSIONS: These initial unifactorial rankings and comparisons must be   interpreted with caution until potential interaction, confounding, and   problems of measurement and causation are further explored.

Response:

writes: – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Authors  Tunstall-Pedoe H.  Woodward M.  Tavendale R.  A’Brook R.  McCluskey MK. Institution  Cardiovascular Epidemiology Unit, Ninewells Hospital, and Medical School,  Dundee. h.tunstallpedoe:dundee.ac.uk Title  Comparison of the prediction by 27 different factors of coronary heart  disease and death in men and women of the Scottish Heart Health Study: cohort  study [published erratum appears in BMJ 1998 Jun 20;316(7148):1881]. Source  BMJ.  315(7110):722-9, 1997 Sep 20.

 Findings included an anomalous coronary  protective role for type A behaviour in women; raised plasma fibrinogen as a  strong predictor of all end points; and an unexpectedly powerful protective  relation of dietary potassium to all cause mortality.  CONCLUSIONS: These initial unifactorial rankings and comparisons must be  interpreted with caution until potential interaction, confounding, and  problems of measurement and causation are further explored.

   Yep.  Which means that potassium may be partly causal (as looks from the animals studies), but also partly (perhaps mainly) just a marker ("confounder") for fruit and vegetable consumption.  If only it were as easy as taking potassium pills!                                       Steve Harris, M.D.

Response:

Response:

  Of course, the big problem with this, as with all supplement research in the US, is that there’s nobody to do it.  Industry isn’t interested, and the government, which only seems to have money for basic research or to repeat drug studies, isn’t either.  The biggest hole in US medical clinical research, as I’ve said many times, is not in investigation of gonzo "alternative medicine".  Rather, it’s in investigation of things that really aren’t that far out, like supplementation and new uses for off patent drugs.

USANA is doing the nutritional research now. It has an in-house staff of scientists and conducts joint projects with a number of institutes in North America and abroad.

Response:

  Of course, the big problem with this, as with all supplement research in the US, is that there’s nobody to do it.  Industry isn’t interested, and the government, which only seems to have money for basic research or to repeat drug studies, isn’t either.  The biggest hole in US medical clinical research, as I’ve said many times, is not in investigation of gonzo "alternative medicine".  Rather, it’s in investigation of things that really aren’t that far out, like supplementation and new uses for off patent drugs. USANA is doing the nutritional research now. It has an in-house staff of scientists and conducts joint projects with a number of institutes in North America and abroad.

I would be interested to see some documentation of this. Please post or direct me to a list of Institutions, published scientists, and descriptions of research projects involved. The Life Extension Foundation does such research and such information is available at its web site. –Tom Tom Matthews The LIFE EXTENSION FOUNDATION – http://www.lef.org – 800-544-4440 A non-profit membership organization dedicated to the extension of the healthy human lifespan through ground breaking research, innovative ideas and practical methods. LIFE EXTENSION MAGAZINE – The ultimate source for new health and medical findings from around the world.

Response:

j so which potassium sources are ok? j regards. —  That depends on what the purpose is for changing your potassium  status – i.e. is your potassium low, normal, or high to start with?  Also, if, for example, your sodium is on the high side, then  potassium sources such as potatoes or beans (low sodium) would be  a better choice compared to celery, spinach, or beets, which supply  higher amounts of sodium.  To increase potassium strictly for the purpose of reducing the risk  for stroke is in my opinion overkill, unless there is at least some  evidence in your chemistry or medical history that you would benefit  from that approach.  Too much potassium  - if not indicated – carries  its own risk for creating medical problems, so personally, I wouldn’t  jump every time someone rings alarm bells.  Especially if there is no  fire that needs extinguishing. —   * Ron Roth

Response:

If you give someone 200mg of _chelated_ potassium, nothing else, cellular levels of K will rise as much, or likely more compared to giving a 600mg pill of slow K (potassium chloride), or compared to ingesting potassium-rich foods at perhaps in excess of over 1,000mg table value of potassium.  

   Nonsense.  Quick trying to pawn off your quack machine readings as reality.

Response:

But it doesn’t work that way.  Dietary sources of potassium also contain potassium antagonists, which would reduce the _effective_ intake or uptake of K.  Not all foods are rich enough in synergistic or complementary ingredients to compensate for that, and calculations on paper are _totally_ inadequate in predicting actual absorption. If you give someone 200mg of _chelated_ potassium, nothing else, cellular levels of K will rise as much, or likely more compared to giving a 600mg pill of slow K (potassium chloride), or compared to ingesting potassium-rich foods at perhaps in excess of over 1,000mg table value of potassium.   Nonsense.  Quick trying to pawn off your quack machine readings as reality.                    [S.B.Harris.MD]

–  That’s about as real as it gets when you compare different sources  of potassium, and their actual K effect (uptake), instead of comparing  a bunch of numbers on a piece of paper.  Once you learn how to measure  mineral _absorption_ (hopefully soon), the fog about these things will  clear, and you’ll feel much better.  Another clue:  You have two potassium food sources with identical  amounts of potassium, however the first one also happens to be rich  in calcium and copper, while the other one is rich in magnesium and  sulfur.  Which one will give you the best K bang for your buck…?  See, and your ego probably told you that there was nothing you could  learn by hanging around these newsgroups… —   * Ron Roth

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – j well, it’s not that hard to compute, logically. there is potassium j in everything we eat and we OVER eat. we’ve got to be getting enough j potassium. j BTW, a pill doesn’t seem to have near as much as some veggies. a j tablespoon of blackstrap molasses has 615 mg. j even with an 1800 kcal diet, i get more than 4000 mgs from veggies. —  But it doesn’t work that way.  Dietary sources of potassium also  contain potassium antagonists, which would reduce the _effective_  intake or uptake of K.  Not all foods are rich enough in synergistic  or complementary ingredients to compensate for that, and calculations  on paper are _totally_ inadequate in predicting actual absorption.  If you give someone 200mg of _chelated_ potassium, nothing else,  cellular levels of K will rise as much, or likely more compared to  giving a 600mg pill of slow K (potassium chloride), or compared to  ingesting potassium-rich foods at perhaps in excess of over 1,000mg  table value of potassium.  Of course these "other ingredients" in  K-rich foods are likely to have additional positive action towards  general better health. —   * Ron Roth

so which potassium sources are ok? regards.

Response:

j well, it’s not that hard to compute, logically. there is potassium j in everything we eat and we OVER eat. we’ve got to be getting enough j potassium. j BTW, a pill doesn’t seem to have near as much as some veggies. a j tablespoon of blackstrap molasses has 615 mg. j even with an 1800 kcal diet, i get more than 4000 mgs from veggies. —  But it doesn’t work that way.  Dietary sources of potassium also  contain potassium antagonists, which would reduce the _effective_  intake or uptake of K.  Not all foods are rich enough in synergistic  or complementary ingredients to compensate for that, and calculations  on paper are _totally_ inadequate in predicting actual absorption.  If you give someone 200mg of _chelated_ potassium, nothing else,  cellular levels of K will rise as much, or likely more compared to  giving a 600mg pill of slow K (potassium chloride), or compared to  ingesting potassium-rich foods at perhaps in excess of over 1,000mg  table value of potassium.  Of course these "other ingredients" in  K-rich foods are likely to have additional positive action towards  general better health. —   * Ron Roth

Response:

Steven B. Harris wrote, I think correctly: +AD4-   Yep.  Which means that potassium may be partly causal (as looks from +AD4-the animals studies), but also partly (perhaps mainly) just a marker +AD4-(+ACI-confounder+ACI-) for fruit and vegetable consumption.  If only it were as +AD4-easy as taking potassium pills+ACE- Potassium chloride also shows up in HalfSalt and other sodium reduction products. People using such products are likely to be taking care of their hearts in other ways as well.                                                              -dlj.

Response:

writes: well, it’s not that hard to compute, logically. there is potassium in everything we eat and we OVER eat. we’ve got to be getting enough potassium. BTW, a pill doesn’t seem to have near as much as some veggies. a tablespoon of blackstrap molasses has 615 mg. even with an 1800 kcal diet, i get more than 4000 mgs from veggies. regards.

   In the HAINES study a fair fraction of people polled had eaten no fruit AT ALL the previous week.  Vegetable consumption isn’t great either.  We do NOT necessarily get "enough" potassium by overeating.  A lot of fatty foods junk foods don’t have a lot of potassium at all. You sound like you’re eating an excellent diet, but you’re the exception.    Pills, BTW, can have quite a bit of potassium if you get prescription ones.  4000 mg is 5 of the 20 meq K-dur tabs.  Taking one of these with every meal can help your intake considerably.  The problem is that we don’t know how worth while that is.  The data screams for a double blind prospective interventionist potassium supplement study.  I suspect that with an at-risk group (people who’ve had a TIA, for instance) the needed numbers might not need to be too large.    Of course, the big problem with this, as with all supplement research in the US, is that there’s nobody to do it.  Industry isn’t interested, and the government, which only seems to have money for basic research or to repeat drug studies, isn’t either.  The biggest hole in US medical clinical research, as I’ve said many times, is not in investigation of gonzo "alternative medicine".  Rather, it’s in investigation of things that really aren’t that far out, like supplementation and new uses for off patent drugs.                                      Steve Harris, M.D.                          Steve

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –  Findings included an anomalous coronary  protective role for type A behaviour in women; raised plasma fibrinogen as a  strong predictor of all end points; and an unexpectedly powerful protective  relation of dietary potassium to all cause mortality.  CONCLUSIONS: These initial unifactorial rankings and comparisons must be  interpreted with caution until potential interaction, confounding, and  problems of measurement and causation are further explored.    Yep.  Which means that potassium may be partly causal (as looks from the animals studies), but also partly (perhaps mainly) just a marker ("confounder") for fruit and vegetable consumption.  If only it were as easy as taking potassium pills!                                       Steve Harris, M.D.

well, it’s not that hard to compute, logically. there is potassium in everything we eat and we OVER eat. we’ve got to be getting enough potassium. BTW, a pill doesn’t seem to have near as much as some veggies. a tablespoon of blackstrap molasses has 615 mg. even with an 1800 kcal diet, i get more than 4000 mgs from veggies. regards.

Response:

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